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At the end of our weekly lectio divina group today at my former Methodist church, the conversation turned to the United Methodist Church General Conference beginning today in Fort Worth, TX. The website masthead is: 
Nice saying, but not lived out when people condemn homosexuality as a sin. And that's where the conversation went this morning. Love the sinner but not the sin. I find that condescending and holier-than-thou self-righteousness.
We had a smaller group than usual today, and two of the five women hoped that the homosexuals would not disrupt the proceedings of the meetings. Of course, one brought up that the Bible declares it a sin, which is when I stepped in to say that not everything in the Bible can be taken literally and that the culture of the time and translations should be considered in trying to understand those scriptural references, so we disagreed on the literal reading of the Bible. More was said until I told them that I preferred not to talk about this as I am very emotionally involved because my daughter is gay and that she was born this way. Even after this, one wondered why "they" didn't just stop practicing it and then everything would all be fine.
I felt pained and hurt, especially by one person, whom I've known a long time and did not realize she felt this way. I ache for my daughter and her partner, as well as other LGBT individuals who are condemned both silently and vocally more often than I will ever know.
The United Methodist Church agreed at the last General Conference:
"Homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth. All persons need the ministry and guidance of the church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self. Although we do not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider this practice incompatible with Christian teaching, we affirm that God's grace is available to all. We commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons." (From "The Nurturing Community," a section of the church's Social Principles, Par. 65G).
What else is "incompatible with Christian teaching" that we participate in? Rev. Russ Whaley wrote:
"If I toss out gay people because of their unrepentant attitude, there are a number of unrepentant persons who, in all fairness, I should also excommunicate. For instance: members who gamble or won’t stand against gambling, though they know full well the United Methodist position on the practice. Also, members who use tobacco (our Book of Discipline says that use of tobacco is not a morally indifferent issue) or alcohol (after all, we did start Prohibition)."
This is an issue that is dividing churches and communities. What about the Golden Rule and loving your neighbor as yourself? What about opening our hearts, our minds, and our doors to others?
I am glad I returned to the Episcopal Church.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And thanks to Grandmere Mimi, I found this excellent post about homosexuality and the Anglican Church at Mark Harris' Preludium and here's a small section:
"I believe Christians are ill equipped to condemn persons of the same sex who are in love with one another for acting on that love in physical ways or for seeking ways to establish and maintain commitment to one another and for seeking blessing from God and the community. Moreover, given the realities of past Christian willingness to condone a wide variety of moral behavior that we would now consider reprehensible and the tendency to resist change from that behavior, the Church carries a beam in its own eye and has no business demanding that others remove the speck (if there is one) in their own."
To read the rest, go here.
Nice saying, but not lived out when people condemn homosexuality as a sin. And that's where the conversation went this morning. Love the sinner but not the sin. I find that condescending and holier-than-thou self-righteousness.
We had a smaller group than usual today, and two of the five women hoped that the homosexuals would not disrupt the proceedings of the meetings. Of course, one brought up that the Bible declares it a sin, which is when I stepped in to say that not everything in the Bible can be taken literally and that the culture of the time and translations should be considered in trying to understand those scriptural references, so we disagreed on the literal reading of the Bible. More was said until I told them that I preferred not to talk about this as I am very emotionally involved because my daughter is gay and that she was born this way. Even after this, one wondered why "they" didn't just stop practicing it and then everything would all be fine.
I felt pained and hurt, especially by one person, whom I've known a long time and did not realize she felt this way. I ache for my daughter and her partner, as well as other LGBT individuals who are condemned both silently and vocally more often than I will ever know.
The United Methodist Church agreed at the last General Conference:
"Homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth. All persons need the ministry and guidance of the church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self. Although we do not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider this practice incompatible with Christian teaching, we affirm that God's grace is available to all. We commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons." (From "The Nurturing Community," a section of the church's Social Principles, Par. 65G).
What else is "incompatible with Christian teaching" that we participate in? Rev. Russ Whaley wrote:
"If I toss out gay people because of their unrepentant attitude, there are a number of unrepentant persons who, in all fairness, I should also excommunicate. For instance: members who gamble or won’t stand against gambling, though they know full well the United Methodist position on the practice. Also, members who use tobacco (our Book of Discipline says that use of tobacco is not a morally indifferent issue) or alcohol (after all, we did start Prohibition)."
This is an issue that is dividing churches and communities. What about the Golden Rule and loving your neighbor as yourself? What about opening our hearts, our minds, and our doors to others?
I am glad I returned to the Episcopal Church.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And thanks to Grandmere Mimi, I found this excellent post about homosexuality and the Anglican Church at Mark Harris' Preludium and here's a small section:
"I believe Christians are ill equipped to condemn persons of the same sex who are in love with one another for acting on that love in physical ways or for seeking ways to establish and maintain commitment to one another and for seeking blessing from God and the community. Moreover, given the realities of past Christian willingness to condone a wide variety of moral behavior that we would now consider reprehensible and the tendency to resist change from that behavior, the Church carries a beam in its own eye and has no business demanding that others remove the speck (if there is one) in their own."
To read the rest, go here.
15 comments:
Does it really surprise you that your friend of so many years feels this way? This is the same church that ostracized WC and that drove out their most eloquent pastor when he came out of the closet. What did you expect? The congregation of FUMC has not had open minds, open hearts or open doors in all of the experience I have ever had with it. Why would they start now?
For that matter, what about fat people? ;-)
I learned today that when my welcome cake at my new church was seen to read "Welcome Songbird and Princess," someone nearly attacked the head of Deacons, demanding to know who "Princess" was.
Um. Songbird's daughter?
Sigh.
Dear Jan,
Thanks for this. I'm so weary of backwards arguments against the LGBT communities, weary of hearing people say things that are so ignorant and un-Christian. I'm especially tired of the argument that homosexual lifestyles threaten the sanctity of marriage, because at no point do those same people seem willing to talk about the things that heterosexuals have done to threaten the sanctity of marriage, and that list is LOOOOOONG.
Bless you and your daughter and her partner... I wish for you all such peace.
Jan, you did quite well with your writing on the subject. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" does not work out to loving the sinner at all.
What about all the other "unrepentant sinners" in the church? The Rev. Whaley is right. The church is for sinners. It's the sick who need the physician. Where did we get the idea that the church was only for the "pure"? Not from Jesus.
Jan, you were courageous to speak out in your group, and it's sad that your friend feels this way. So many people don't read the Bible, they hide behind it, and use it to justify their own cruelty.
(((Jan)))
oh, and Songbird, I recently learned that there were some who speculated about me when I came to this church, since I was single at the time. You know, a single woman, must be....
Anger and tears well up, hearing these same old arguments over and over and over.
You did well and were eloquent and gracious, I am sure.
I pray for the day when welcomes are real and sincere and true.
Jan, I meant to add that the woman who would not stop even after you told your story is an incredibly insensitive "Christian". Why doesn't she stop "practicing" insensitivity?
(((Jan)))
It's a broken world, I'm sorry for the pain you are experiencing around this issue. There are real places of welcome, there are real values of love and acceptance and affirmation. But we do have to search for them.
Pax, C.
Dear friends, thank you for your caring and support.
My dear Jan,
In all honesty, as you know, I have prayed about this issue and God has been silent. I believe we are ALL sinners in need of a savior. I believe in the literal translation of the bible and I believe we are all to love one another and to treat one another in grace and love. But I also don't want another's "sin" in my face, such as the LGBT marches and such, as well as the way it is taught in elementary schools that it is a normal way of life. My heart goes out to those who are homosexual, as much as it does to drug addicts (me), smokers (me), gamblers (not me), and other such sins. We grapple with it in our innermost beings, knowing that we are off somehow. And we are ALL off somehow. All that said, I have a very good friend who is gay, and I listen as she talks about her life and her search for the perfect partner and all that entails. She knows my background, we have talked at length about it, but have somehow come to an understanding that we are friends and we accept each other as we are. I don't judge her, neither do I judge your daughter or anyone else. It seems to me in all my praying that it matters not that it is a sin or not, what matters is what someone said, we all have planks in our own eyes and we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. We are arguing the wrong argument. The doors of the church should be open to everyone, and if I were to be active in my drug use and going to church stoned every day, someone would say something to me, I'm sure, but they dare not kick me out. But they would. Jesus wouldn't, but neither would I sin in his presence, for I would have the power to stop. All sex outside of marriage is a sin (fornication, promiscuity) if you want to get real technical, so there are a boatload of those in church, too.
It's real easy to put a tag on something until you meet a human who fits that tag.
I know my view isn't popular, but it's my opinion, given in a loving and, I hope, respectful manner. You have a gay daughter, my mother has a drug addict for a daughter, my own daughter had an abortion a couple of years ago. We all have our stuff. What we can do is come together with the love of Christ and hold one another up and at the very least, be kind.
I have to add that that woman, your friend, was way out of line and I'm so sorry you had to endure that. I'm so proud of you for speaking up and I can only imagine how gracious you must have been and how hard it must have been for you. But know that you have many, many friends in the world who, even though, like me, they may not believe like you do, still respect and admire you, and will hold you up in prayer and blessings.
It's been very hard for me, dealing with this issue, but I will continue to seek God in this because I want to know the right thing, the real thing, the truth. The bible is not some book I take lightly and use it to fit my own beliefs, and I'm sure you don't either.
I hope this all made sense and came across the way I intended, with love and respect.
Hi there, Jan--
You are a kind soul. The world is not always a kind place, especially to sexual minorities (or, let's face it, anyone who's "not like me"), and that's hard on a mom.
It's far easier to take the path of least resistance and judge the "other" than to do the work of honest engagement; sounds like your friend has chosen the former in this case. I'm sorry. Everyone in my Beloved's family of origin has made the same choice, and it's painful.
And you're missing your own mom, as well. Tough couple of days, huh? Keep breathing; God lives in the bleak places, too. You are in my prayers. :-)
So so sad. We all need to learn to be more loving and accepting of one another. We are so terrible at putting ourselves in one another's shoes. It is sad that some cannot understand that being gay is not a choice that one makes. If a person is biologically gay, then God would certainly one hundred percent accept that person's gayness---why can't we?
Jan, this is so well said. Bless you for speaking honestly and openly in such a toxic setting.
As the proud mom of a gay son, these ridiculous "it says so in the bible" arguments make me sad - not for my son or your daughter - but for the so-called "Christian" people who need to cling to their prejudice.
Slowly, very slowly, the tide of tolerance is turning.
Blessings to you and your daughter.
Maureen,
I resent your comparison of homosexuality to drug addiction, gambling, adultery, smoking or even abortion.
There is a key difference between homosexuality and all of those things: homosexuality is not a choice, anymore than your gender or my height is. Homosexuality is caused both by the genetic makeup of a person's DNA, and, to a lesser extent, to the atmosphere in which a fetus matures in the womb. Anyone telling you that homosexuality is a choice is either lying or doesn't know the science behind it.
As much as you should be lauded for fighting your addictions to drugs and smoking, it was your choice to begin doing drugs and to begin smoking. My attraction to other women, just like your attraction to men, is innate.
I have many faults and I have committed many sins, if you will. But homosexuality is not one of them - it is neither a fault nor a sin.
And as for your comment that "All sex outside of marriage is a sin (fornication, promiscuity) if you want to get real technical," that is a moot point, for I am not allowed and possibly will never be allowed to marry my partner, so there is no state of marriage outside of which to commit the sin of adultery or "promiscuity," as it were. A condition that does not exist cannot be violated.
Your comments did not and cannot come across "with love and respect," as you claim, because they were not written "with love and respect." They were written in the vein of someone who hides behind her religion under a veil of self-righteousness.
If your "gay friend" is willing to remain your friend in spite of your relegation of her to permanent second-class status and to your comparison of her undeniably genetic attractions to drug addiction and gambling, then that is her prerogative and she is certainly a better person than you or I, but she is nevertheless getting a raw deal and you should consider yourself grateful that someone values your friendship more than you value her very humanity.
Your use of religion to relegate homosexuality to the status of a sin is the very same usage that was used to justify slavery and Jim Crow laws. Your bigoted and close-minded beliefs disguise themselves as piety.
My mother may be willing to look past your passive condemnation of her daughter and millions of other human beings around the world because she is the most forthright and truest Christian I have ever met, but she is a better person than I. Just as you struggle with your vice of addiction, I struggle with a vice of my own - not homosexuality but rather the lack of any patience for the ignorant and the intolerant.
At the very least, own up to your prejudice for what it is and stop pretending that your knowledge of a handful of culturally antiquated and badly translated passages in a Bible provide an open-and-shut case for you to condemn what you do not understand. If you could simply say, "I think homosexuality is disgusting," at least you would be honest and wouldn't have to maintain the farce of defending yourself by mangling the words of the Bible and making Jesus Christ himself grimace in shame.
Infinity squared - for your information, drug addiction has been called a "disease". That is why you and many others can take a drug and walk away and I cannot. What do you say to that in your hate-filled heart? I feel sorry for you. For while I seek answers you seek only to point fingers. I said I don't have the answers. But I'm searching for them. And my gay friend and I had a falling out, seems she was telling all her friends about each other's deepest, darkest secrets. Luckily, I didn't share too much with her because she was insecure and needy and I didn't trust her a whole lot, turns out I was right. Guess who told me this stuff? Her ex partner, who I am now very close to, a strong, wonderful woman. Who also knows my struggles, by the way, and respects them. This world is made up of many souls who walk many paths, and I don't judge them as you have just judged me.
Yes, I feel sorry for you, for your hate filled heart, for the bitterness you feel you have to live with. I love Jesus with all my heart, as much as I can, and for you to even perceive to know how he feels makes me cringe inside, how dare you.
I have my own struggles to worry about yours and others who share your way of life. We are all born into sin and that is that. What we do with our sin is another matter.
I hope you feel better having released such hate upon me, I don't take it personally however, I don't know you and I have enough in my own life to deal with.
Have a nice day.
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